Author Topic: The need for suffering?  (Read 5923 times)

april222

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The need for suffering?
« on: April 16, 2012, 11:39:50 PM »
I briefly studied Buddhism in school and found many Buddhist principles that i was drawn to. The one point I didn't fully comprehend is the need to suffer. Would you say that you have to have some form of suffering even if it were only a result of deprivation of something good? If so, can you explain why. I mean would it really be impossible to live a Buddhist life without suffering?

SifuPhil

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Re: The need for suffering?
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2012, 01:57:36 PM »
I think we have to remember where and when Buddhism first appeared, Perhaps it was a dangling carrot to the majority of the population that was always hungry and ill ... "It's OK to suffer - it's part of the human condition" is what it says to them.

Suffering is a central theme in many religions, and that's the only reason I can think of for its inclusion.

catowoman

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Re: The need for suffering?
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2012, 04:44:19 AM »
Many people who don’t suffer don’t know the significance of good things or the wonderful things they have at the moment or they want to gain. Would you give water a value if you don’t thirst? Would you be thankful for your every meal if you’ve never known hunger all your life or you don’t see people who go hungry while you’re full at every meal? Would you see how strong other people are to aid you if you don’t get sick? Will there be a need to discover medicines, new technologies to make life better? Everybody would be taking drugs or alcohols if it won’t destroy them or their relationships. For every suffering people learned, your heart grows bigger because you’d realize a blissful life isn’t meant for one person alone and cannot be achieved without doing your best or putting up a struggle. Suffering gives meaning to human’s existence. It makes people strong, it filled them with wisdom. Even rich people suffer because in spite of all the wealth, all the grand and beautiful things his money can buy, he could still feel empty because money can’t buy love, and money can only buy temporary happiness. Feeling empty is suffering. Feeling unloved is suffering. Being wounded is suffering. If you don’t feel even a little of this, what is it that you’re still going to look for in life? If you haven’t known this of other people, what else is there for you to give? Who would need who if there are no sufferings?

Ishtahota

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Re: The need for suffering?
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2012, 09:44:28 PM »
     The one person that we lie to more then any other person in this world is ourselves. We also have an ego that lies to us and tells us how great our life is and how great we are. Drama, conflict and suffering is here to knock us out of our comfort zone. For without it we would never willingly choose to truly choose to grow spiritually. Suffering is not something that is forced on us by Spirit. The judgments do not come from Spirit, we judge ourselves. My higher-self makes the judgment, and my sub-conscious makes sure that I get involved in the drama that will teach me about what it is that I am running from. When I work with people here on the Mountain I tell them to learn to love the AFGE. (AFGE= Another F***ing Growth Experience). When I dive into the drama and conflict and the suffering, I get a big rush of spiritual energy when I get what Spirit is trying to teach me. 

Truth

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Re: The need for suffering?
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2012, 07:59:15 PM »
     The one person that we lie to more then any other person in this world is ourselves. We also have an ego that lies to us and tells us how great our life is and how great we are. Drama, conflict and suffering is here to knock us out of our comfort zone. For without it we would never willingly choose to truly choose to grow spiritually. Suffering is not something that is forced on us by Spirit. The judgments do not come from Spirit, we judge ourselves. My higher-self makes the judgment, and my sub-conscious makes sure that I get involved in the drama that will teach me about what it is that I am running from. When I work with people here on the Mountain I tell them to learn to love the AFGE. (AFGE= Another F***ing Growth Experience). When I dive into the drama and conflict and the suffering, I get a big rush of spiritual energy when I get what Spirit is trying to teach me.

Beautiful post. I recognise your name from 'The Godlight Forums'- and there is no such thing as coincidence as i'm sure you're aware..

When I get excess pleasure in my life, I ask God for pain for the same reason that you accept the pain.

In the teachings of Truth that Is Guru Granth Sahib Ji- the Truth seeker is taught to detach from duality- the Truth seeker comes to see that pleasure and pain and pain is pleasure. We can only truly learn this and come to the balance when we embrace all of our positve and negative karmas as one- as Truth.

The teachings tell us that pleasure is the disease while pain is the remedy- for we rarely remember God/Truth in pleasure. 

In our comfort zone, we never really learn much. Pain is a huge blessing- when we get fed pain, we practice Truth to get back to the balance. 

We remember that it's all Truth/God(God was the first One to find Truth- and we're here to follow suit). With each dose of pain, we realise that it's just the balance(Truth) being served.

The way we kill the mind(the home of the great deciever-Maya/Illusion- the origin of worldly knowledge) and live by and learn through the heart(origin of divine knowledge)-with an open heart- is through the eradication of duality.

 It is then that we are able to accept God's will in all circumstances- This is True love- as Jesus taught us.

God bless you
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 08:02:29 PM by Truth »

soffty

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Re: The need for suffering?
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2012, 07:32:57 PM »
Truth. I have read several of your posts, and it is obvious to me that you selected a very fitting alias. I have found it difficult (not impossible) to find people online who care anything about truth. I enjoy very much reading your posts. I hope that you can realize the satisfaction that you transfer to your readers. If they do not understand as they read, please know that at least half of them will, at some point in the future. Your writing skills are much better than mine.

I have a story about Buddha that may explain a few things to some readers. It shows how he entered society with no ego, which is basically impossible. Extreme suffering prior to his entering society is why. We all enter this world as souls by incarnation into a body. The science of this dimension is all about positive and negative charge, and the vibration that it creates. The ego is the negative charge that attaches to the soul, which is positive, in order to establish balance of charge. We live within the ego, which is a delusionary state. What we see is a reflection of truth.

  In a land near India, long ago, a king ruled. It is common that rulers indulge themselves, as few people achieve enlightenment as a ruler. This king had sex with palace slaves, as was the norm. It would not be hard to visualize a situation where a ruler had access to the most beautiful young women. But it would be rare for a religion to allow this truth to be its foundation.

The king fell in love with one such slave, and she became pregnant. It was not the first time such a thing happened, and the king always inflicted a death penalty upon the newborn. But this time he was truly in love. The slave demanded that the king not kill her child, and told him that if he did, she would kill herself. So the king made a promise.

It would be hard to believe that a king would submit to the wishes of a slave girl. The best a slave might achieve would be some form of compromise. The king kept his promise, but on his terms.

The newborn was taken away from the mother, and put into a room. For 18 years, the child was kept in a chair...constantly served by a group of servants. He stayed that way the entire time...never doing anything for himself. All he knew were the few servants and the four walls of the room...which had a doorway.

On the 18th birthday of the child, it weighed between 400 and 500 pounds. It could not walk. It was wheeled out the front door of the palace, and left on the steps...in a wagon. As it sat in the wagon, it saw...for the first time...the sky...townspeople...movement of the air...trees...houses...and shops. This child would become the spiritual leader of the world.

I hope that you continue to write online. I will always keep my eyes open for more Truth.

Wade

Sandra Piddock

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Re: The need for suffering?
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2012, 10:58:31 AM »
I don't think that suffering is a requirement for any religion, but it is something that everyone experiences to some degree, at some stage in their lives. It is this common experience that bonds people of alll races and creeds, and as Sifuphil says, it's at the heart of most belief systems.

Suffering has an effect on lives - sometimes many effects over a long period of time. These effects, both good and bad, make us into the people we are, and make us seek answers to questions, and this is what all belief systems are about. Suffering is a part of life, so by extension it is a part of our religion or belief system.

soffty

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Re: The need for suffering?
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2012, 12:09:26 PM »
All of us have ego attached and that is what life is about. Suffering opposes the ego. Western religion supports the ego while Eastern religion opposes it. All of the answers to every question we have has been provided. We just have to seek truth, while the ego siggests that we assume and not seek.

I offer any reader a choice...continue to assume, or seek truth...google my name and Deal Or No Deal. Then all it takes is an hour or two and you will know why you are on this planet and what will happen after you die. All of history will fit into your new understanding, while all of Western society will not.

Your choice...seek truth and oppose your ego, which is the meaning of life...or continue to asssume.

Wade

DiminishingInsanity

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Re: The need for suffering?
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2012, 11:00:26 PM »
I briefly studied Buddhism in school and found many Buddhist principles that i was drawn to. The one point I didn't fully comprehend is the need to suffer. Would you say that you have to have some form of suffering even if it were only a result of deprivation of something good? If so, can you explain why. I mean would it really be impossible to live a Buddhist life without suffering?

The Four Nobel Truths of Buddhism are as follows.

1) Life on earth is suffering.

2) The origin of suffering is attachment

3) The cessation of suffering is attainable.

4) The Eightfold path to the end of suffering.

Suffering is a state of mind, and so it is possible to change our mind about it. My own belief is that all suffering comes from our belief in the ego. We don't need the ego or the suffering that comes with it, but we think we do because of the conscious and unconscious feelings of guilt we have stemming from the separation. Forgiveness is key to healing our sick, guilt stricken minds and elevating our suffering. Changing the world is not necessary. All that is required is that we listen to spirit and change our interpretation of the world. When that happens the world will change on its own.
Namaste

soffty

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Re: The need for suffering?
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2012, 12:03:16 AM »
Hey Namaste, did the Dali LLama invent a new Buddha to replace the original? I have found things that just don't add up. For example, in your 4 truths:

1) Life on earth is suffering.
2) The origin of suffering is attachment
3) The cessation of suffering is attainable.
4) The Eightfold path to the end of suffering

I find them to be lacking. Life on earth is seeking truth and the meaning of life so we may pursue our purpose. Suffering is a tool to oppose the ego, so we may follow our quests. We have no need to end suffering...it is a non factor...it ends itself...once truth has allowed us to follow our quests. We embrace suffering so we may see clearly. Attachment is ego, one of the many failures of humanity and allows the ego to control us...as we see and live the delusion. If ego has not caused us suffering then it will cause addiction or some other deviation from our purpose.

I suggest that we never have to forgive another, we only have to see the beauty of the spirit. We only have to forgive ourself. To do that, we have to first find truth and accept what we truly are. Death is a tool. It allows us to change what our soul is, and to allow our next life to have more truth. Ultimately, we all will work together...once we have found truth.

Wade

DiminishingInsanity

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Re: The need for suffering?
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2012, 05:39:39 AM »
Hey Namaste, did the Dali LLama invent a new Buddha to replace the original? I have found things that just don't add up. For example, in your 4 truths:

1) Life on earth is suffering.
2) The origin of suffering is attachment
3) The cessation of suffering is attainable.
4) The Eightfold path to the end of suffering

I find them to be lacking.

Hello my friend. I can assure you those Four Nobel Truths are not mine. They are at the core of Buddhism. Many Buddhists believe they were taught by Buddha himself. Why do you ask about the Dali Lama?


Life on earth is seeking truth and the meaning of life so we may pursue our purpose.

I agree. Personally, I don't feel that the truth is something that can be attained by hearing it said or reading it in a book. It's fun to talk about it, but everybody has a different idea of what the truth is. Even within the same belief systems there are many divisions. For me the truth is a condition. It is a state of knowing. One that transcends perception. Admittedly, I do not know what the truth is, but I agree that life is a journey in which the ultimate goal is the truth ... and it is attainable as evidenced by the great spiritual masters that have come before us.


Suffering is a tool to oppose the ego, so we may follow our quests. We have no need to end suffering...it is a non factor...it ends itself...once truth has allowed us to follow our quests. We embrace suffering so we may see clearly.

I must respectfully disagree. I would say that ego is the cause of all our suffering. Rather than oppose the ego it reinforces it. The ego tells us that all we really are are these little, fleshly, vulnerable, ever fallible bodies. Little specks of life whirling around on a planet in a universe so vast we cannot comprehend it. It has us believing that we are lacking things, and a lot of them i.e. food, water, air, shelter, clothes, the right this, the right that, etc. The ego tells us that in order to be whole we need a constant supply of many things that really have little to do with our happiness, but are necessary to maintain these bodies that we call our self.

Suffering is a tool of the ego. When a man suffers he acknowledges that he is a body. You cannot tell a man who is in physical pain that his body is not real, and it is not what he really is. To a person in pain the body seems like the only thing that is real. You cannot tell a person who has lost a loved one that he/she has really lost nothing at all. In such cases the suffering denies clarity. With ego comes judgment, condemnation, separation, deprivation, and feelings of guilt. Such things serve to increase our suffering and ensure the survival of the ego. Even in good times the same can be said. You can't tell a man having sex that he is not a body.

Ultimately, the ego and suffering are only ideas. As the saying goes we are not human beings dreaming of spirit. We are spirit dreaming of human beings. If this is so than escaping suffering and the ego is a matter of changing our minds. One of the best ways to do this is through forgiveness.

Attachment is ego, one of the many failures of humanity and allows the ego to control us...as we see and live the delusion. If ego has not caused us suffering then it will cause addiction or some other deviation from our purpose.

Yep.

I suggest that we never have to forgive another, we only have to see the beauty of the spirit. We only have to forgive ourself. To do that, we have to first find truth and accept what we truly are.

Suppose the beauty of the spirit is that we are all one and that there is no separation? If that's the case then when we forgive or condemn others we forgive or condemn ourself, so how can self forgiveness be possible if we hate others? How can we accept spirit when spirit encompasses all the many people we hold grudges against?

Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Furthermore, suppose the truth is that this crazy, disaster zone we call the physical universe doesn't really exist at all. As The Course In Miracles puts it we are asleep in Heaven dreaming the ego dream. Today there are quantum physicists who know that the physical cannot really exist.

“Reality is merely an illusion, although a very persistent one”

 Albert Einstein

“A wise man, recognizing that the world is but an illusion, does not act as if it is real, and so he escapes the suffering.”

 Buddha


Death is a tool. It allows us to change what our soul is, and to allow our next life to have more truth. Ultimately, we all will work together...once we have found truth.

I see death as a reset button. It allows us to choose again.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 06:35:07 AM by DiminishingInsanity »
Namaste

soffty

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Re: The need for suffering?
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2012, 01:18:54 PM »
Namaste, excellent reply. You have illustrated the reason why reading is important. I have tremendous respect for you, and I appreciate your efforts to interact with me.

These posts and replies are exactly the same as reading one of my books. My books are online and are short, and are written in a simple manner. But, there is a difference, and it is very important. Our "debate" here is hinging on fine details in the meaning of words. That meaning is not explained well at all in a short post.

"The positive thing about writing is that you connect with yourself in the deepest way, and that's heaven. You get a chance to know who you are, to know what you think. You begin to have a relationship with your mind."
-- Natalie Goldberg

"To write spiritually is to engage in a search for authentic language. You’ll find your truth by writing your way to it."
-- Patrice Vecchione

Writing involves paragraphs that lay down a path that leads to an explanation. Our difference in our interpretation of the ego and suffering can be understood in a short Ebook. I think we actually agree on most things, but on a forum it just cannot be realized very well.

As far as Dali Lama, I want to point out that there are more than one form of Buddhism. Our study of suffering is a good example of that difference. In my studies, it seems that the Dali Lama used his popularity to promote a new style of Buddhism with a new Buddha.

Suffering allows us to see clearly who we are. The ego promotes an illusion, and we never know who we are until we see truth, and the truth is, we live within a delusion. people have no idea whjat the truth is, and the ego is our purpose in life.

If you would read a few pages, you would note that I mention the fact that the soul is incarnated fgrom a dimension where there is no negative charge, as in electricity. The path of light we attempt to follow after death leads to Heaven and beyond, where there is no vibration of particles. This vibration is the determinating factor between positive and negative charge.

If you had read my first book, you would know exactly why you are here. It is about science...the vibration of particles, and the negative charge which attaches to your soul when it is incarnated. Seek truth my friend, and why not find it rather than fear it. Yes, it is my opinion that the ego has caused you to have a tiny bit of fear, which makes you not want to click a few buttons and find the true meaning of life. The ego is our opponent.

I see wisdom in your heart.

Wade
« Last Edit: July 04, 2012, 12:24:31 AM by soffty »

DiminishingInsanity

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Re: The need for suffering?
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2012, 10:25:38 PM »
Hey Namaste, did the Dali LLama invent a new Buddha to replace the original? I have found things that just don't add up. For example, in your 4 truths:

1) Life on earth is suffering.
2) The origin of suffering is attachment
3) The cessation of suffering is attainable.
4) The Eightfold path to the end of suffering

I find them to be lacking.

As far as Dali Lama, I want to point out that there are more than one form of Buddhism. Our study of suffering is a good example of that difference. In my studies, it seems that the Dali Lama used his popularity to promote a new style of Buddhism with a new Buddha.

There are certainly more than a few branches of Buddhism. It's been around for over 2500 years, and so have The Four Noble Truths. I can assure you the Dalai Lama did not invent them. The first Dalai Lama was Gedun Drupa who lived from 1391-1474. You are of course free to disagree with them, but it's a mistake to say that the Dalai Lama invented them.

Suffering allows us to see clearly who we are. The ego promotes an illusion, and we never know who we are until we see truth, and the truth is, we live within a delusion. people have no idea whjat the truth is, and the ego is our purpose in life.

What I believe is that the ego itself is an illusion and represents all that is not real. In a sense it is our dream. Because suffering comes from the ego it to is an illusion and one that serves to reinforce the ego. You can call it an ego defense mechanism. In my experience suffering has not helped me to see clearly. It has served to further blind me to what I really am. There's a reason Buddha taught how to end suffering. If we are spirit and spirit cannot suffer then how does suffering show us that we are spirit?

If you had read my first book, you would know exactly why you are here. It is about science...the vibration of particles, and the negative charge which attaches to your soul when it is incarnated. Seek truth my friend, and why not find it rather than fear it. Yes, it is my opinion that the ego has caused you to have a tiny bit of fear, which makes you not want to click a few buttons and find the true meaning of life. The ego is our opponent.

I can assure you my fear is not tiny. I've come to believe that the reason why we are here is due to our fear and guilt over the separation from Spirit. I'm not sure what your interest level is in hearing this theory, but loosely said it is similar to the parable of the prodigal son. I seek truth and will find it when fear has left me. Are you familiar with Plato's allegory of the cave? 

I've skimmed through your book. You mention that you are only interested in reactions to it and don't care much if they are good or bad. If that is true it is a commendable position for a truth seeker to take, but I think responses are probably more what you're after. Well, here are a few impressions.

Insanity understands an equation which inspires a person to be objective. Insanityembraces the universe with open arms...ready to learn. Insanity has clear visionbefore, during, and after a decision is made. Insanity has a conscience and needsno excuses. Insanity accepts a quest. And it is insanity that removes the barriersbuilt by the ego. Insanity is open and honest...vulnerable to the influence oftruth.Sanity must first consider all the options and alternatives...not as to effectivelysearch for truth...but to soothe the ego.

I got to this part early on ... and I have to say you completely lost me. You talk as if insanity is a good thing. If the physical is an hallucination that comes from the ego then the ego is insanity. It causes us to see things that aren't there. People take strong medications for that. If the physical is an hallucination then to embrace it in an effort to learn its mysteries does not lead to clear vision. It simply reinforces the hallucination. The mysteries of the universe are put there by the ego as a distraction. We solve one problem and another one takes its place etc. Such insanity does not remove the barriers set by the ego it reinforces them and thereby increases the insanity. As you may have noticed by my username I'm moving in the opposite direction.

It is the ability tostroke the social order of egos that leads to a sane life...history proves that.Sanity is a fortress that protects the ego.

If the ego is insane then sanity banishes it.

In order to understand truth we need a perspective that relates to more than justthe physical world. Truth is a reality in the universe. Reality is a state ofbalance among many opposing forces. If it was unbalanced then the reality would besomething else. So, the universe is an equation...containing many diversecomponents which balance each other to form the result. Our planet is a part ofthis balanced equation.

This paragraph is perhaps the thesis statement of your book. You see truth as a reality that exists within the universe. I see the universe as the hallucination and the truth is what's left. Spirit is by definition not physical, and since I consider Spirit to be the truth I do not except the physical as truth. I see the physical universe as a hiding place of sorts. A place of separation where God is no where to be found. One that we made using the power of our minds, but one that is nothing more than a dream. You may have guessed this all goes back to the fear and guilt over the separation from God.

As far as the positive and negative charges, gravity, magnetism, electricity, etc. These are all physical phenomena. They appear to exist within the realm of the ego, duality, and opposites. I believe that Spirit lies outside this realm, so such things do not represent the truth. They serve only to reinforce the physical hallucination. The rest of your book attempts to reconcile the physical with Spirit, insanity with sanity, so you can guess by now what my position is on it.

I believe that your efforts to understand the truth are sincere and commendable, but you make the mistake that maybe 99% of all truth seekers make. You try to reconcile the imperfect with the perfect, the physical with the divine. Once you do that it causes all kinds of problems to arise. Invariably people who attempt such a reconciliation redefine God as an insane, fallible, god that is moody as hell ... pun intended. Example:

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Boom, right there you get complete insanity that is the basis for what comes after it.

BTW, happy 4th of July.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2012, 07:08:29 AM by DiminishingInsanity »
Namaste

soffty

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Re: The need for suffering?
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2012, 11:09:30 PM »
Wow, I am impressed with your efforts. I want to respond, but first I would like to say that my books are short and simply written. They establish a beginning and move toward an understanding. They cannot be skimmed, and then understood.

Deal Or No Deal offers documented proof as it moves to its meaning.

I am not big on studying the history of Buddhism. I probably should do so, but I am only interested in the Buddha who was so huge he could not move around well. He did not enter society and experince life until he had suffered more than anyone...for 18 years. So, he had no ego...as I define ego. And, I do define ego in my books extensively. I establish the cause and result of ego.

I understand that we disagree completely. You are more attached to the history of this world, and are content with it. You seem to see illusion all around us. The paragraphs I wrote about insanity were making a point in comparison, and are not a textbook defending society or any religion. You missed my point.

My perspective is from America, and that is what I write about...society in America. If you cannot understand my books, please realize I have thousands of readers and few cannot follow my points. Home Sweet Hell explains what happens after we die...maybe you can skim that one and respond too.

My point about ego is simple. Americans are obsessed with today, in the physical world, and how it treats them...on a daily basis. Me...me...me. They lie constantly, and cannot even be honest with themselves. Not all of us, but the vast majority. And especially the leaders. My autobiography displays what I am talking about.

But, I must ask your forgiveness. I have no intention of defending my books, They are the property of the reader. You are entitled to do as you please, even if there was little commitment involved. I should be able to handle any reply.

I always retain hope that a reader will understand, and I do have an ego.

The difference is that I live my life backing up my words.

Wade Welch Deal Or No Deal 


soffty

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Re: The need for suffering?
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2012, 12:34:11 AM »
Namaste,

In my freeEbook, Deal Or No Deal, the two paragraphs about sanity that you mention:

Insanity understands an equation which inspires a person to be objective. Insanity embraces the universe with open arms...ready to learn. Insanity has clear vision before, during, and after a decision is made. Insanity has a conscience and needs no excuses. Insanity accepts a quest. And it is insanity that removes the barriers built by the ego. Insanity is open and honest...vulnerable to the influence of truth.

Sanity must first consider all the options and alternatives...not as to effectively search for truth...but to soothe the ego. Sanity requires results...so the priorities get rearranged at will. And sanity rewards those who keep secrets...embrace group ideals...and wait for opportunity. It is the ability to stroke the social order of egos that leads to a sane life...history proves that. Sanity is a fortress that protects the ego.

These are following up on a point I am making for several paragraphs prior that also lead to more points. Here, I am comparing the bottom line of American society. People are obsessed with themselves, and consider anyone who is different to be insane. In preceding paragraphs, I mention "the Fool", "the condemned",  and "the insane"...with me as the example. I am using that as a label, as I clearly show in my book.

Do I really need to explain that point? Consider each sentence. What is an egotist? A person who is obsessed with him/herself is common and routinely acts accordingly. They do not understand an equation that defines life, do not accept the universe as it is open-mindedly, are control freaks, have clouded "vision", have no conscience and live through the use of excuses, will not accept a quest unless it pays overly well and it bound by contract, have a huge barrier protecting their ego, and are not open and honest.

So, I am obviously explaining how society is hypocritical. Opportunists, conspiring, pretenders, and stroke egos of others to achieve "success". Do I need to explain each incorrect point you make, or can you go back and actually read my 40 page book which takes an hour or two, and has truth presented that will actually save your soul and all of humanity?

Wade Welch Act Of Giving


 

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